... help in the struggle ...
on the yahoo! newsheadline ...
"Philippines abolishes the death penalty"
lifting my hope and faith in this thing we call life.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shape!'
"Philippines abolishes the death penalty"
lifting my hope and faith in this thing we call life.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shape!'
posted by elaine x at 11:48 AM
10 Comments:
Yo Elaine,
How's it going? Hot in Las Vegas yet? I think that I've posted these links on my blog before but, I didn't know if you'd had a chance to check them out. I would reccomend downloading them, putting them on a CD or MP3 player and listening to them while you drive or whatever (I usually listen to stuff like this while I'm cooking). The following links are talks by my favorite philosopher and pastor and one of the most brilliant men that I have ever heard speak. His name is Dr. Timothy J. Keller, and he is the pastor of Redeemer Presbeterian Church in New York City. His knowledge of history, philosophy, theology, ancient writings and cultural anthropology is unparalled in any one else I've ever read or listened to. His teaching is unbiased in a way that VERY few christian pastors can attain to.
I've been reading your blog for a while and it has left me a bit confused. I know that you don't believe that Christ is and was God in the flesh, and that you don't believe in the free gift of Salvation through Chirst's death and resurection; but after reading your posts and getting a taste of your love of humanity, I don't understand why you wouldn't give your life to Christ. Nonetheless, I enjoy hearing your viewpoint. I hope you enjoy Tim Keller's talks. Here are the links:
http://www.redeemer2.com/resources/index.cfm?fuseaction=media_q_a (This is the link to the main question and answer page. Each MP3 is about 2 to 3 minutes long.)
http://www.redeemer3.com/store/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=11&CFID=70485&CFTOKEN=26107401 (This is a link to the sample sermons page. They are about 30 to 40 minutes. If you only listen to one, listen to the one entitled, "Who Is This Jesus."
This is not a bunch of unreasoned Christian psycho-babble. This is the stuff that those people cant handle a lot of the time. I really hope you enjoy it.
Full Talks
2 to 3 minute Q&A
I don't think the links came through correctly on the last comment.
hello anton ...
christ is a consciousness, it isn't a person.
and while 'jesus christ' embodied the christ consciousness, christ consciousness exists in all ... it is a very inadequate way to describe 'god' which is even more vast than just the collective christ consciousness in all human beings.
as for 'giving my life over to christ' ... well, that i suppose is the age long debate between the surrender to god and the exercise of the power god granted us in the form of free will. in the context of the modern church and how that phrase is used and the principles it is based upon, the surrender of my life to something outside of myself would be an abomination to god. it is only to the christ consciousness that exists within me and my own unique "i am" that merge together to create the being that is embodied as "elaine" is to what i give my life.
besides that, i try to follow the 'rules' or commandments given to me by the teachers who were able to more completely merge the "christ consciousness" (in its various forms of metaphor and names) and the "i am" that existed within them to create the individuals they were. the universal law given by jesus relating to 'the golden rule' or the laws of karma and the living of 'i am' that he taught, i find covers all the other "commandments" quite well.
as a good accessible introduction to some of the scriptures paul wrote about and ones that jesus studied, is the book "god is a verb" by rabbi david cooper ... he has a story that relates this principle ... it is a story from the talmud, a jewish scripture ... the story goes like this ...
"the talmud records a wonderful story of a debate over an esoteric point of law in which one sage, rabbi eliezer, stood alone against dozens of other sages. he tried every conceivable argument to convince his peers, to no avail. finaly, exasperated, he said, "if the law (god) agrees with me, let this carbob tree prove that i am right." at that moment, the carob tree flew out of the ground. some say it moved 150 feet, others say 600 feet. but the sages were not convinced, and they responded, 'you cannot prove anything from a carob tree.'
so rabbi eliezer said, 'if the law (god) agrees with me, let this stream of water prove that i am right," whereupon the stream reversed itself and began to flow uphill. the sages once again replied, 'proof cannot be brought from a stream of water."
rabbi eliezer persisted. "If the law (god) agrees with me, let the schoolhouse walls prove that i am right." it is said that the walls of the schoolhouse began to lean inward, but before they could fall, another sage, rabbi josua, yelled at the walls, saying "when scholars are involved in a dispute about the law, what right do you have to interfere?" at this the walls stopped leaning inward. it is said that in honor of rabbi eliezer, they never went completely upright, but in honor of rabbi joshua, they did not fall. rather, they remained on a permanent slant.
the story does not end here. rabbi eliezer stubbornly called out, "if the law agrees with me, let heave prove that i am right!" at this, a bat kol, a heavely voice, thundered against all the scholars: "why do you argue with rabbi eliezer? do you not know that the law always agrees with him!" one would think that this would be sufficent for the sages to change thir minds, but not so.
at this point, rabbi joshua stood up and quoted a verse from deuteronomy: "the comandment which i command you is not hidden from you, nor is it far. it is not in heaven that you should say, 'who will go up to heave and bring it to us that we can hear it and do it? nor is it beyond the see that you should say, "who will cross the sea and bring it to us that we can hear it and do it? but the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it"
rabbi joshua's position was that the torah was given at mt. sinai so that earthly matters were now mankind's domain, and the heaven should not interfere. this astounding talmudic assertion indicates that human reason carries precedence over heavly mandates. it strongly declares complete independence in interpreting the laws of Moses. In many ways it is definitive evidence in support of total free will. the sages voted, and defeated rabbi eliezer, despite the fact that god was clearly on his side.
the talmud goes on to record a conversation between rabbi nathan and the prophet elijah, who spoke with him from heaven . . . [when asked about the debate] elijah responded that the holy one had laughed and had said to all of the angelic hosts (with obvious pelasure), 'my children have defeated me!"
judaism is noted for its chutzpah in its relationship with the creative force. the torah describes a number of biblical events in which abraham and moses repeatdly argue with god until their points are made; that is to say, until god changes its mind, so to speak.... clearly the world of god in judaism has never been viewed as a final decree but as divine intention that can be debated and in some instances reversed.
according to kaballah, the linchpin of our relationship with god is founded on the belief that human beings have creative capability to intervene in the 'normal' course of events. one word, one gesture, or even one thought can cahgne the direction fo the creative process. this being so, we are led to conclude that human beings pay a cocreative role." taken from "God is a Verb", Rabbi David Cooper, pp. 73-74.
when you study the scriptures (and not just the 'torah' claimed to be the first 5 books of the bible, which is truly only the 'written' half of the torah, which like most ancient scriptures only 1/2 of the scripture as the other 1/2 is oral, handed down only from sage to sage), and then you start thinking about jesus teachings in the context of the scriptures he was taught, and the information he was given before he started teaching his words, rather than his words as the beginning, the difference becomes quite profound.
most "Christian" churches are led by pastors who have no scholarly background and what is considered 'scholar' in terms of modern christianity is less than 2000 years old and all of them based strictly on the "bible" ... a modern scripture. most do not even study the jewish scriptures that are the basis of modern christianity that was not stolen or co-opted from the pagans by constantine when the bible was compiled. especially considering that the scriptures jesus studied were more than 10,000+ years old (and i'm only speaking of the those emanating from the jewish faith, not even considering the other scriptures of the region from other cultures that jesus was exposed to and taught.), the current christian notions of 'christ' and 'salvation' have little meaning or true context except to separate one from a true relationship with god.
anyway ... what does it mean to you, 'to give your life to christ' and what is the 'free gift of salvation'? what does that mean?
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shape!'
p.s. yes its HOT in vegas ... 95 by 9:00 a.m. ... thank god for the pool! and i'm familiar with redeemer presb. church ... one of the few churches that is very active on the issues of social justice ... i have found encouragement in the more 'traditional' churches coming out of the reformation and protestant movement initiated by martin luther for many of the reasons in the section i quoted from rabbi cooper's book ...
i do know that martin luther would be turning in his grave if he saw the way the modern fundamental christians have taken his protest and turned it back to where it was before it all started ... powerless people dependent upon an external god to 'save' them ...
i will check out the keller speeches ... another great church along those traditional lines is "All Saints Episcopal Church" in Pasadena, California.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shpae!'
Thanks for that. I didn’t realise that such interpretations of the relationship between humankind and the divine existed in scripture.
Learning something new everyday.
First, Christ was indeed a real person, He only existed in one person, ever, and that person is the person we call Jesus of Nazareth. He was hung on a Roman cross, convicted of the crime of calling Himself God, He died, and He rose again from the dead three days after he was placed in a tomb. He now lives forever and welcomes us into a relationship with Him that will last forever. That is the free gift. It's just like if I handed you a box with wrapping paper, you could choose not to accept it, but that doesn't change the fact that I am offering it to you (not the best metaphor I realize, but I'm just trying to set up the fact that there is nothing you can do to earn God's love and there is nothing you can do that is so bad that God will stop loving you). But there is a punishment for our unwillingness to give our lives to God. It is not something that we ever have to worry about while we are alive, because the punishment is death, and in death we are separated from God forever.
So to recap, love Christ, accept His gift, live forever. Don't love Christ, don't accept the gift, die and be separated forever. Which is such a horrendous thought if you really think about it. That is why I have devoted my life to telling people about Jesus, because I can't stand the thought of them not knowing Him, and being subject to that horrible fate.
Oh, sorry, to answer your question, "...to give your life over to Christ," that is not something that you have to do, it is something that just happens when you accept Christ's love in Jesus. Jesus is very much offering you this gift, if you accept it, you won't be able to help living for Him, because when you love someone you want to serve them. It's just like the relationship of a Mother and her child (only more perfect), a parent doesn't love their child because of anything they've done, they just love them because they are their child, and that is even through the human filter of our sin!
I don't mean to be harsh, but this thing you call the "christ consciousness," that's a new-age idea that leaves an age-old question unanswered. "If God loves us, then why do bad things happen?" Elaine, I know you know the answer to this, bad things happen because of bad people. Christians tend to call this idea sin. Christ offers freedom from that. That's really all I can say. That and try and listen to the Tim Keller talk called "Who is This Jesus." He does a much better job of telling the story of who Jesus really was as a man and who Jesus is as the one and only God of the universe.
I hate sounding preachy. I just want you to know Jesus for who He really is, because He'll change everything.
anton,
all i can say, is you need to study a whole lot more of the christian scriptures at a deeper level than you currently have been taught.
i am not a 'new age' anything ... please do not categorize me that way so as to judge or degrade me or my sound 'christian' beliefs ...
when Paul talked about "all scriptures" well, in the 3rd grade i asked my teacher 'which scriptures is Paul talking about when he wrote that letter to the people in Thessalonians, because he could not be talking about "the bible"' (as we had just learned in class was constructed several hundreds of years later) ... i was at North Clackamas Christian School in Oregon City, OR ... they began to teach me about the scriptures Paul spoke of ... my faith and teaching comes through mainstream christianity ...
until i left my parents home and continued on my own spiritual teaching path ... i learned under their various religious affiliations: dutch orthodox, luthern, baptist, southern baptist, pentacostal and finally, what i call 'holy roller club' e.g., oral roberts, pat robertson, john osteen, kenny copeland, joyce meyers and the like. most of the latter influences lied the most ... and i rejected those as they disregarded the 10 commandments in their words and actions ... and still do.
know your history, understand the construction of the bible and do not listen to the 'propaganda' of externalization of god and christ that the modern christian churches do in making 'jesus' a being that you are not. you are a child of god, just like he was, human and god. anyone who tells you differently is lying. and nothing Jesus ever taught will tell you that IF you study the entire context of the scripture known as the bible.
'bad' things happen for the same reason that you 'reap what you sow' ... this life is not separate from eternity, but rather an integral part of it ... one cannot be separated from god because god is omnipresent; just as to think this life is unconnected to eternity ... past and future ... is not a true biblical principle.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shape!'
... and, one can only love god as much as one loves themselves
AND, conversely, one can only receive the love of god as much as one feels worthy of receiving that love.
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catch it if you can....
cheers!
p&h,
e
"fmbe2sis!"
In response:
"when Paul talked about "all scriptures" well, in the 3rd grade i asked my teacher 'which scriptures is Paul talking about when he wrote that letter to the people in Thessalonians, because he could not be talking about "the bible"' (as we had just learned in class was constructed several hundreds of years later) ... i was at North Clackamas Christian School in Oregon City, OR ... they began to teach me about the scriptures Paul spoke of ... my faith and teaching comes through mainstream christianity ..."
Paul was a jew. And added to that he was an incredibly accomplished jew. Here is what he has to say about his status as such:
"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic, faultless." Philippians 3: 4-6
Of course Paul wasn't talking about the Bible as we know it today. How could he have been, IT DIDN'T EXIST YET. The scriptures that Paul was talking about were the ancient Jewish texts. Which comprise the Old Testament as we know it today. Were there other books that aren't in the OT, yes there were, I'm happy to admit that. However, Paul doesn't mention or quote from them in any of his letters. But none of that matters when we are talking about Christ. And here is why:
Paul says this about his life before God appeared to him on the Damascus road when he became a follower of Christ:
"But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider them shit, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead." Phillipians 3: 7-11
(By the way, if you don't believe that it uses the word "shit" in the Bible, do a Greek word study on what the NIV translates as "rubbish." Paul is essentially calling his entire life's toil to attain to the Jewish law, which was insanely difficult and unattainable, shit.)
And Elaine, of course I need to study the Christian Scriptures at a deeper level, that is my life's work and to say that I've studied the Bible at a deep level at this point in my life would be a lie. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was calling you New-Age, I don't even know you and I didn't mean to sound accusatory.
anton,
your zeal and love are so beautiful, i am so thankful to know you. you challenge me and uplift me.
"The scriptures that Paul was talking about were the ancient Jewish texts. Which comprise the Old Testament as we know it today." ... don't ever say that to a Rabbi!
the jewish faith has several scriptures, of which the torah is one ... and, quite contrary to common belief, the torah is not the first five books of the bible. the jewish faith has a sacred tradition of oral scripture, it has not, to my knowledge, ever been written. 1/2 of their scripture is written and the other 1/2 is only related in oral tradition from sage to sage. ... and then some say there is another, as they say the scripture was actually in 3rds ... the final 1/3 held only for those sages who travel on the mystical journey with the prophets.
the bible is a complete scripture from which a person can understand christ, but first, you must understand that christ in the meaning of the jewish faith and the context of the bible is a consciousness, not one person. the bible (and definitely jesus) never claims that jesus was christ, only that he embodied christ. ... also bear in mind that paul never knew jesus, so he could have been the first person to personify the concept of 'christ' in a person ... although i do not think he truly did, but of his writings that were chosen to become a part of the bible, it was definitely the intention of those who assembled the bible to make jesus, the man, divine.
it took several years of discussion and numerous votes before the council of nicea (i think that's who did it), declared jesus 'divine' ... as we know, jesus never claimed divinity beyond the divinity that resides in all of us.
i think in that passage, paul is talking about the hypocracy of the principles of the law, e.g., the 10 commandments, and those practicing the jewish faith who were, he himself included, 'living by' ... which they were not. until paul had his 'moment of enlightenment of the christ consciousness' and then through the teachings of jesus, was he able to even understand what he tried in vain to do for so many years. obviously, he was where we have been ... commandments that are so clear, like 'though shall not kill' underlie all christian faiths, yet it is the 'Christians' who push this war and the killing of thousands and thousands of people.
Christians, without the christ consciousness cannot do what jesus taught. They claim to follow the 'way' but they do not even know him (like peter denying jesus).
it has only been in the modern christian church that one 'accepted jesus' rather than 'received christ' into their life ... so you can see how the church has been creating an idol of a man that never wanted that ... all he wanted was people to receive the christ into their own life and live and breathe god.
cheers ... all we can do is keep knocking, searching and asking ... the doors keep opening, new things are discovered and new truths are revealed ... the best thing about christ.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be execised to stay in shape!'
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